December 2019 General Election Thread

This is all getting farcical now. Labour now promising free fast fibre broadband to all businesses and homes in the country. FFS get a grip!

So do you support all businesses being required to pay the living wage Laffy?

Mammoth wrote: I think Kessler is only talking about the basic pay which needs to be enough for someone to have a worthwhile standard of life from. No-one should be expected to give the best part of their own life over to a business that doesn't give them a worthwhile standard of living in return.

Yes thank you that's exactly what I mean. It's selfish for any business to expect employees to work for a wage that isn't enough for them to actually live on.

Mammoth wrote: It shouldn't be a fight between worker and business rights, both do better when the other side do better.

Yes. Businesses shouldn't see unions as the enemy. See them as people who want both the employer and the employees to do well, with everyone being treated fairly.

Kessler wrote:

Mammoth wrote: I think Kessler is only talking about the basic pay which needs to be enough for someone to have a worthwhile standard of life from. No-one should be expected to give the best part of their own life over to a business that doesn't give them a worthwhile standard of living in return.

Yes thank you that's exactly what I mean. It's selfish for any business to expect employees to work for a wage that isn't enough for them to actually live on.

Mammoth wrote: It shouldn't be a fight between worker and business rights, both do better when the other side do better.

Yes. Businesses shouldn't see unions as the enemy. See them as people who want both the employer and the employees to do well, with everyone being treated fairly.

Difficult to pin a figure on how much people require to live on really - whatever it was there would still be those believing that it is not enough.

Sounds like working for Mr Jenkins is driving you round the twist Kes, it isn't worth the grief surely - have you tried applying to many local companies, they cannot all be as bad surely.

munchymagic wrote: Difficult to pin a figure on how much people require to live on really - whatever it was there would still be those believing that it is not enough.

It's calculated each year for the cost of living and currently the number is £10.75 in London and £9.30 in the rest of the country. That's what people need to live on, according to the evidence. Do you think employees should have to work for less than what they need to live?

Kessler wrote:

munchymagic wrote: Difficult to pin a figure on how much people require to live on really - whatever it was there would still be those believing that it is not enough.

It's calculated each year for the cost of living and currently the number is £10.75 in London and £9.30 in the rest of the country. That's what people need to live on, according to the evidence. Do you think employees should have to work for less than what they need to live?

In that case then probably everyone on here at one time or another has worked for less than what they need to live on.

We should compare incomes Kes, it might make you feel a bit better.

I can only go from my own situations and we generally pay much more than the market rate to avoid churn and encourage staff retention-certainly well above the min wage.As you know, we also encourage share ownership via option schemes and a good pension scheme .

I am in favour of a ‘minimum income’ policy across the whole UK as I think inequality is a massive challenge.But I don’t think this can be sorted by excessive taxation on wealth creators.

There are bad employers out there of course-hence the minimum wage coupled with tax policy taking the lower paid out of the tax system.

My first job was 60p an hour-a petrol pump attendant at 16.

60p an hour,no wonder you are minted.
My first job was a paper boy at 10 shillings a WEEK.
It was 1970 though.

Kessler wrote:

Mammoth wrote: I think Kessler is only talking about the basic pay which needs to be enough for someone to have a worthwhile standard of life from. No-one should be expected to give the best part of their own life over to a business that doesn't give them a worthwhile standard of living in return.

Yes thank you that's exactly what I mean. It's selfish for any business to expect employees to work for a wage that isn't enough for them to actually live on.

Mammoth wrote: It shouldn't be a fight between worker and business rights, both do better when the other side do better.

Yes. Businesses shouldn't see unions as the enemy. See them as people who want both the employer and the employees to do well, with everyone being treated fairly.

Try telling that to the RMT.

whytakemypostcode wrote: This is all getting farcical now. Labour now promising free fast fibre broadband to all businesses and homes in the country. FFS get a grip!

Im sure Laffy said a bit back that he believed energy would be free at some point in the future so why not broadband as well?

.............because nothing is free.

Tell the dup that

Its started already imagine what Sky, Virgin and Talk Talk will do if god forbid the Chlorinated chicken won the election. There would be court case after court case and who would pay for it all . And i bet someone on say £25,000 a year would still have to pay while the scroungers of the country will get it for nought.

www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/labour-broa...ar-BBWNI3v?li=AA54rU

We may not be able to get food, get a job, but we can look at boobies all day, for free.

My heads turned, labour all the way!

Not like you to be negative Richard. Id have thought youd be more open to labours other policies as well.

Dancingbear wrote: Not like you to be negative Richard. Id have thought youd be more open to labours other policies as well.

As I said further up, i've been brought up as a Labour voter and voted for them in GE's.

Labour look after the vulnerable in society far better than what the conservatives do. The universal credit debarcle has been an absolute utter disaster and punishes people even in work. I'm actually for the PIP system, I think the descriptors are fair, the issue is giving the assessments to ATOS and Capita, whose only in it for the money. I certainly won't be voting Conservatives either - I do like Boris though.

On Brexit the Tory's (can't vote brexit party here) would of got my vote, but its about so much more. I dispair at Labours policy of getting a new deal, then campaign against it for remain, madness along with the £15 P/H McDonalds staff crap.

At this moment in time, there's no party I like - The choice, in Carlisle, is Conservative, Labour, lib dems or UKIP (no idea of any independents) when i do online "tests" to see who i vote for all come out with a negative score apart from UKIP - and i'll never vote for them again.

I think everyone should vote, but i'm seriously thinking of just drawing a great big penis on the thing!

Mullen103 wrote: We may not be able to get food, get a job, but we can look at boobies all day, for free.

My heads turned, labour all the way!

No shortage of people living that life style already, and we're already paying for it

Mullen103 wrote:

Dancingbear wrote: Not like you to be negative Richard. Id have thought youd be more open to labours other policies as well.

As I said further up, i've been brought up as a Labour voter and voted for them in GE's.

Labour look after the vulnerable in society far better than what the conservatives do. The universal credit debarcle has been an absolute utter disaster and punishes people even in work. I'm actually for the PIP system, I think the descriptors are fair, the issue is giving the assessments to ATOS and Capita, whose only in it for the money. I certainly won't be voting Conservatives either - I do like Boris though.

On Brexit the Tory's (can't vote brexit party here) would of got my vote, but its about so much more. I dispair at Labours policy of getting a new deal, then campaign against it for remain, madness along with the £15 P/H McDonalds staff crap.

At this moment in time, there's no party I like - The choice, in Carlisle, is Conservative, Labour, lib dems or UKIP (no idea of any independents) when i do online "tests" to see who i vote for all come out with a negative score apart from UKIP - and i'll never vote for them again.

I think everyone should vote, but i'm seriously thinking of just drawing a great big penis on the thing!

Can’t disagree with a lot of that. Brexit has been a total disaster of the conservatives doing so I’d rule them out. I’ve decided to be totally blinkered and seeing as Corbyn or Johnson won’t be named on my voting form I’ll be voting for the person who’s name is on it that I want to be my local MP.

Dancingbear wrote:

Mullen103 wrote:

Dancingbear wrote: Not like you to be negative Richard. Id have thought youd be more open to labours other policies as well.

As I said further up, i've been brought up as a Labour voter and voted for them in GE's.

Labour look after the vulnerable in society far better than what the conservatives do. The universal credit debarcle has been an absolute utter disaster and punishes people even in work. I'm actually for the PIP system, I think the descriptors are fair, the issue is giving the assessments to ATOS and Capita, whose only in it for the money. I certainly won't be voting Conservatives either - I do like Boris though.

On Brexit the Tory's (can't vote brexit party here) would of got my vote, but its about so much more. I dispair at Labours policy of getting a new deal, then campaign against it for remain, madness along with the £15 P/H McDonalds staff crap.

At this moment in time, there's no party I like - The choice, in Carlisle, is Conservative, Labour, lib dems or UKIP (no idea of any independents) when i do online "tests" to see who i vote for all come out with a negative score apart from UKIP - and i'll never vote for them again.

I think everyone should vote, but i'm seriously thinking of just drawing a great big penis on the thing!

Can’t disagree with a lot of that. Brexit has been a total disaster of the conservatives doing so I’d rule them out. I’ve decided to be totally blinkered and seeing as Corbyn or Johnson won’t be named on my voting form I’ll be voting for the person who’s name is on it that I want to be my local MP.

My vote would go to Tarquin Fin-tim-lin-bin-whin-bim-lim-bus-stop-F'tang Ftang-Ole-Biscuitbarrel.

whytakemypostcode wrote: This is all getting farcical now. Labour now promising free fast fibre broadband to all businesses and homes in the country. FFS get a grip!

This is proof, if proof were needed that Corbyn and Co have no idea of how an economy works.

Which individual or company in their right mind would invest in the UK when their assets and intellectual property could be taken over by the state? Why invest in infrastructure, train staff, and plan ahead when it is understood that those resources may no longer belong to the company?

The vast majority of internet users do not need full fibre broadband so the whole exercise would be a huge exercise in waste. Those businesses, and they are businesses, that do require the fastest speed broadband should pay for it.

Shareholders, who are often wealthy should stand the risk of such a speculative scheme, not the taxpayer, because there is absolutely no guarantee that a Labour government could squeeze an extra penny out of tech giants like Facebook.

Boris finally bumbles into Stainforth. Doesn't go too well. Maybe should stick to what he's good at: insulting Corbyn in Parliament.

www.indy100.com/article/boris-johnson-ar...-video-watch-9202781

Voted remain. Never voted Tory in my life and never will BUT totally sick of remoaners.
They were lied to and conned by the Leave campaign, yet they still managed to overcome these lies by voting for remain back then as they would again.
Unfortunately some of their less gifted fellow voters were conned so we need to start again.
The good thing that will be achieved by this election result is blow that out the water.
People are entitled to oppose Brexit and think it is a bad idea, but they have to respectfully accept the fact that they are in the minority. They are then entitled to be as vociferous as ever about how Brexit is terrible for the country but can’t keep undermining democracy and have to accept the result is legitimate. The tories are going to win a majority but at least we can then all move on and the opposition can oppose by looking forward, not back.

Laffy wrote: I can only go from my own situations and we generally pay much more than the market rate to avoid churn and encourage staff retention-certainly well above the min wage.As you know, we also encourage share ownership via option schemes and a good pension scheme .

I am in favour of a ‘minimum income’ policy across the whole UK as I think inequality is a massive challenge.But I don’t think this can be sorted by excessive taxation on wealth creators.

There are bad employers out there of course-hence the minimum wage coupled with tax policy taking the lower paid out of the tax system.

My first job was 60p an hour-a petrol pump attendant at 16.

We seem to agree then. It sounds like your own business would have nothing to worry about but surely you don't wan't to be undercut by the bad employers? Labour aim to create the conditions where businesses that are doing the right thing reap the rewards. No one wants to see excessive taxation on wealth creators either, just a fair tax system that funds a society that works for all. In turn a prosperous society is also good for business.

Mammoth wrote:

Laffy wrote: I can only go from my own situations and we generally pay much more than the market rate to avoid churn and encourage staff retention-certainly well above the min wage.As you know, we also encourage share ownership via option schemes and a good pension scheme .

I am in favour of a ‘minimum income’ policy across the whole UK as I think inequality is a massive challenge.But I don’t think this can be sorted by excessive taxation on wealth creators.

There are bad employers out there of course-hence the minimum wage coupled with tax policy taking the lower paid out of the tax system.

My first job was 60p an hour-a petrol pump attendant at 16.

We seem to agree then. It sounds like your own business would have nothing to worry about but surely you don't wan't to be undercut by the bad employers? Labour aim to create the conditions where businesses that are doing the right thing reap the rewards. No one wants to see excessive taxation on wealth creators either, just a fair tax system that funds a society that works for all. In turn a prosperous society is also good for business.

All very well in an ideal world, but the big wealth creators hold all the aces and if conditions in this country aren't favourable, tax wise or incentives to invest here,lack of industrial action and a skilled workforce, they will go elsewhere.

Then we have no billionaires or large companies to tax. Better taking a reasonable amount from a lot of companies and having higher employment than taking an excessive amount from a few and having lower employment and continual industrial unrest.

Once Uncle Len gets his feet under the table Labour won't have to bother thinking about a four day week, because we'll be back to the days of three day weeks and thirty million strike days a year.

Overseas investors will be queing up, not.

We already have a system that works pretty well-Labour have a fixation with interventionist policy-and I don’t think government should micromanage.

With ‘full employment’ the boot is on the foot of the employee.

Laffy wrote: We already have a system that works pretty well-Labour have a fixation with interventionist policy-and I don’t think government should micromanage.

With ‘full employment’ the boot is on the foot of the employee.

With "full employment" it might be. But there isn't full employment. There is only full "part time" employment or full "zero hours contract" employment.

Consequently the employer still holds all the aces.

Mullen103 wrote: As I said further up, i've been brought up as a Labour voter and voted for them in GE's.

Labour look after the vulnerable in society far better than what the conservatives do. The universal credit debarcle has been an absolute utter disaster and punishes people even in work. I'm actually for the PIP system, I think the descriptors are fair, the issue is giving the assessments to ATOS and Capita, whose only in it for the money. I certainly won't be voting Conservatives either - I do like Boris though.

On Brexit the Tory's (can't vote brexit party here) would of got my vote, but its about so much more. I dispair at Labours policy of getting a new deal, then campaign against it for remain, madness along with the £15 P/H McDonalds staff crap.

At this moment in time, there's no party I like - The choice, in Carlisle, is Conservative, Labour, lib dems or UKIP (no idea of any independents) when i do online "tests" to see who i vote for all come out with a negative score apart from UKIP - and i'll never vote for them again.

I think everyone should vote, but i'm seriously thinking of just drawing a great big penis on the thing!

Labour have a new deal virtually ready to go which they will put to the people and implement the result. Labour have said they would campaign against Boris's bankers brexit but they haven't said they will back remain against a Labour deal. To be fair Labour's deal is a soft brexit but that's something that reflects the 52/48 mandate and can unite the country again. The extremist winner take all strategies of the Conservatives and Lib Dems will continue to fracture our society for decades to come.

McDonnell was supporting McDonalds workers in their battle against low pay and terrible working conditions. The McDonalds workers want £15/hour and if they can get it then fair play to them. Labour policy is for a more modest £10/hour minimum wage.

Funny that you are a natural Labour supporter but are thinking you can't vote for them because of imagined policies that aren't actually true. I don't blame anyone for this misunderstanding, it shows how determined the establishment is to defend the rigged system from the positive change that will come with a Labour government and how effective the establishment media propaganda machine has been at stopping people from hearing Labours popular policies.

labour.org.uk/issues/

Mammoth wrote:

Mullen103 wrote: As I said further up, i've been brought up as a Labour voter and voted for them in GE's.

Labour look after the vulnerable in society far better than what the conservatives do. The universal credit debarcle has been an absolute utter disaster and punishes people even in work. I'm actually for the PIP system, I think the descriptors are fair, the issue is giving the assessments to ATOS and Capita, whose only in it for the money. I certainly won't be voting Conservatives either - I do like Boris though.

On Brexit the Tory's (can't vote brexit party here) would of got my vote, but its about so much more. I dispair at Labours policy of getting a new deal, then campaign against it for remain, madness along with the £15 P/H McDonalds staff crap.

At this moment in time, there's no party I like - The choice, in Carlisle, is Conservative, Labour, lib dems or UKIP (no idea of any independents) when i do online "tests" to see who i vote for all come out with a negative score apart from UKIP - and i'll never vote for them again.

I think everyone should vote, but i'm seriously thinking of just drawing a great big penis on the thing!

Labour have a new deal virtually ready to go which they will put to the people and implement the result. Labour have said they would campaign against Boris's bankers brexit but they haven't said they will back remain against a Labour deal. To be fair Labour's deal is a soft brexit but that's something that reflects the 52/48 mandate and can unite the country again. The extremist winner take all strategies of the Conservatives and Lib Dems will continue to fracture our society for decades to come.

McDonnell was supporting McDonalds workers in their battle against low pay and terrible working conditions. The McDonalds workers want £15/hour and if they can get it then fair play to them. Labour policy is for a more modest £10/hour minimum wage.

Funny that you are a natural Labour supporter but are thinking you can't vote for them because of imagined policies that aren't actually true. I don't blame anyone for this misunderstanding, it shows how determined the establishment is to defend the rigged system from the positive change that will come with a Labour government and how effective the establishment media propaganda machine has been at stopping people from hearing Labours popular policies.

labour.org.uk/issues/

And if burger flippers get £15 an hour what do skilled tradesmen like electricians, welders, plumbers,joiners who work for companies get?

£30 an hour, £60 an hour? Bye the way, they will need to earn that much because a big mac meal will be £25 and a pint of beer a tenner.

Welcome to McDonnell's world.

Dentonholmersimpson wrote:

Mammoth wrote:
We seem to agree then. It sounds like your own business would have nothing to worry about but surely you don't wan't to be undercut by the bad employers? Labour aim to create the conditions where businesses that are doing the right thing reap the rewards. No one wants to see excessive taxation on wealth creators either, just a fair tax system that funds a society that works for all. In turn a prosperous society is also good for business.

All very well in an ideal world, but the big wealth creators hold all the aces and if conditions in this country aren't favourable, tax wise or incentives to invest here,lack of industrial action and a skilled workforce, they will go elsewhere.

Then we have no billionaires or large companies to tax. Better taking a reasonable amount from a lot of companies and having higher employment than taking an excessive amount from a few and having lower employment and continual industrial unrest.

Once Uncle Len gets his feet under the table Labour won't have to bother thinking about a four day week, because we'll be back to the days of three day weeks and thirty million strike days a year.

Overseas investors will be queing up, not.

Yes, so lets strive to create the ideal world where we find the optimum point where favourable conditions for business are balanced with favourable conditions for workers. Of course there is a balance to be found but as you point out we are a long way from that ideal world.

Britain is still the 6th biggest economy in the world, even with tory mismanagement of the economy. Businesses want our business and billionaires want to live in the surroundings of a relatively peaceful, developed society, with rule of law, etc, some of them may even be patriotic enough to be willing to contribute to a fairer society. If some of them do decide that Britain is not the place for them to trade then there will be a gap in the market to fill which home grown businesses can take advantage of. Nobody ever said "I don't want to become a billionairre because I might have to pay a higher rate of tax".

Re £15/hr, I just pointed out that £15/hr isn't Labour policy.

Mammoth wrote:

Dentonholmersimpson wrote:

Mammoth wrote:
We seem to agree then. It sounds like your own business would have nothing to worry about but surely you don't wan't to be undercut by the bad employers? Labour aim to create the conditions where businesses that are doing the right thing reap the rewards. No one wants to see excessive taxation on wealth creators either, just a fair tax system that funds a society that works for all. In turn a prosperous society is also good for business.

All very well in an ideal world, but the big wealth creators hold all the aces and if conditions in this country aren't favourable, tax wise or incentives to invest here,lack of industrial action and a skilled workforce, they will go elsewhere.

Then we have no billionaires or large companies to tax. Better taking a reasonable amount from a lot of companies and having higher employment than taking an excessive amount from a few and having lower employment and continual industrial unrest.

Once Uncle Len gets his feet under the table Labour won't have to bother thinking about a four day week, because we'll be back to the days of three day weeks and thirty million strike days a year.

Overseas investors will be queing up, not.

Yes, so lets strive to create the ideal world where we find the optimum point where favourable conditions for business are balanced with favourable conditions for workers. Of course there is a balance to be found but as you point out we are a long way from that ideal world.

Britain is still the 6th biggest economy in the world, even with tory mismanagement of the economy. Businesses want our business and billionaires want to live in the surroundings of a relatively peaceful, developed society, with rule of law, etc, some of them may even be patriotic enough to be willing to contribute to a fairer society. If some of them do decide that Britain is not the place for them to trade then there will be a gap in the market to fill which home grown businesses can take advantage of. Nobody ever said "I don't want to become a billionairre because I might have to pay a higher rate of tax".

Re £15/hr, I just pointed out that £15/hr isn't Labour policy.

Well the shadow chancellor gave it his backing,as for tory mismanagement of the economy, when we were on our arse in 2010, if labour had been re-elected, what would they have done?

Why isn’t the Internet common infrastructure? Using that logic we should privatize the army because who would ever invest in britain if the government controlled that? Is there anything more necessary in our lives than the Internet?

No one had an issue when the Banks went to the government. Guarantee of access to all is a good idea.

Just watched BBC news-Labour AND the unions meeting this weekend to finalise their manifesto plans.Lord help us.

I’m old enough to remember my parents waiting 3 months for the installation of a telephone pre liberation of BT.

Yes Laffy, not only did you have to wait months for a telephone to be installed in the 1960s but they were also incredibly expensive. The only people who had them in our street were sales reps - who also had cars when the rest of us had to use public transport. I don't have any problem with BT Openreach being nationalised. It is in charge of important national infrastructure rather like Network Rail and the Highways Agency.

I have voted Tory,Labour even Lib once,consider myself a moderate on the political front.I will be voting Tory this time- because I don't won't Corbyn and is left wing lot anywhere near No10.
Corbyn once stated Chavez rise to power in Venezuela as a model for real socialism.Venezuela went from the richest country in South America to the brink of bankruptcy and social ruin.
Like most far left idealism , on paper sounds perfect..Chavez brought in a modern national health system ,promoted a equality wage system ,brought major welfare reform ,premoted public funding ,starving private funding. Unfortunately all this needs funding from somewhere ,even the oil rich state could not fund such social reforms ,especially when oil prices are subseptable to fluctuation.
Corbyn as already if elected will start the ball rolling in the same
direction. I just hope labour finally see sense and get rid of this dangerous person ,then appoint a leader to give us the alternative to the Torries.

I couldn't vote for the Conservatives, but totally agree that Labour need different leadership. Tories morally bankrupt and without any vision (Johnson a dreadful PM who brings nothing of value), Labour offering what many see as extreme old-time socialism that won't work. Proper opposition desperately lacking.

People seem to think paying £15 for a Big Mac meal is expensive. It’s relevant to wages paid though!! You go to Geneva and it’s £15+ for a Big Mac meal but the wages are £65k+ on average so it works. I’d much rather be in Switzerland than here right now.

hampshire_blue wrote: People seem to think paying £15 for a Big Mac meal is expensive. It’s relevant to wages paid though!! You go to Geneva and it’s £15+ for a Big Mac meal but the wages are £65k+ on average so it works. I’d much rather be in Switzerland than here right now.

That sounds like an argument for staying out of the EU. The Swiss have never been a member.

By the way what's the average wage of a McDonalds worker in Switzerland?

I’d rather have a solution like Switzerland’s than anything we’ve been offered yet. McDonalds workers in Switzerland are covered under a law where all service industry employees are guaranteed 3400-4000 Swiss francs per months so about £3150 before tax.

You mean the tax haven of Switzerland.

Cue rant from Marko

Dentonholmersimpson wrote: Well the shadow chancellor gave it his backing,as for tory mismanagement of the economy, when we were on our arse in 2010, if labour had been re-elected, what would they have done?

You don't cut spending in an economic slowdown, the problem is a lack of economic demand and austerity makes that problem worse so consequently the UK has been going through one of the slowest growth rates after the recession of any of the major economies. At a time when both borrowing and prices are cheap you need to invest to stimulate the economy and the rest of the world abandoned austerity long ago.

Thanks for mentioning burgers and Switzerland.
The biggest travesty of the 90’s was Burger King scrapping the mushroom double Swiss. I’ve never fully recovered.

CCU wrote:

Mammoth wrote: To be fair Labour's deal is a soft brexit but that's something that reflects the 52/48 mandate and can unite the country again. The extremist winner take all strategies of the Conservatives and Lib Dems will continue to fracture our society for decades to come.

Labour’s proposed deal will do anything but unite...

First off, Brexit is not as important as stopping the continuing tory destruction of our economy, society, and democracy. The establishment continue to screw the workers if the status quo continues and they screw us even more with Boris's version of Brexit. Labour are the party that will take on the establishment and deliver a fair society so, whether you are for leave or remain, you can get us out of this mess by voting for Labour and your preferred Brexit option will still be to play for.

On Brexit, I'm a lexiter (EU is a neoliberal establishment project taking us to the same hell as the Conservatives want to, if maybe a bit slower) so I would have been happy with a managed no deal in 2016. I think many on here are supportive of a no deal Brexit. However don't mistake a consensus on here for a consensus in society, forcing 50% of the country into a massive change that it is bitterly opposed to will sow division for decades to come. The argument has not been won and compromise is the only way to heal the divide. Let's take the Labour soft Brexit and when we are out we can point out the absurdities that will become apparent and try to build consensus for moving further apart in the future.

seabird wrote: I have voted Tory,Labour even Lib once,consider myself a moderate on the political front.I will be voting Tory this time- because I don't won't Corbyn and is left wing lot anywhere near No10.
Corbyn once stated Chavez rise to power in Venezuela as a model for real socialism.Venezuela went from the richest country in South America to the brink of bankruptcy and social ruin.
Like most far left idealism , on paper sounds perfect..Chavez brought in a modern national health system ,promoted a equality wage system ,brought major welfare reform ,premoted public funding ,starving private funding. Unfortunately all this needs funding from somewhere ,even the oil rich state could not fund such social reforms ,especially when oil prices are subseptable to fluctuation.
Corbyn as already if elected will start the ball rolling in the same
direction. I just hope labour finally see sense and get rid of this dangerous person ,then appoint a leader to give us the alternative to the Torries.

Well, given your stance, it's good of you to acknowledge that Venezuela was at one point heading towards the ideal society that everybody would want to live in. Why can't we strive to build the ideal society here, learning from the mistakes that have been made in places like Venezuela? You can't think we are close to the ideal in this country now, or even that we are moving in the right direction, surely? Venezuela was the richest country in South America in 2001 under Chavez's socialist government. Unfortunately, Maduro took over in 2013 and corruption has since destroyed that country. This is what happens with revolutions, radical change happens too quickly, power corrupts, and the institutions that keep power in check are swept aside.

Britain is a much more stable democracy with well established political institutions and, despite how the right wing establishment media would portray it, Labour's proposed changes are just a modest reversal of some of the excesses that have been inflicted on our society since Thatcher. You would maybe liken it to the Scandinavian social democratic model which a lot of people do hold up as an ideal in many respects.

If, God forbid, Corbyn got into power, backed by momentum and the unions it will be back to the days of strike after strike, like the RMT on speed.

'' They got a 5% pay rise, let's go for 10 ''.

If anyone has a mortgage I would switch to a fixed rate asap.

The only thing to look forward to, is the look on all these youngsters faces when they can't charge their mobile phones because of the power cuts.

In 2009 the last Labour government borrowed 154 billion and the left a note saying '' Sorry, there's no money left''.

That amount might cover re-nationalising BT, how they are going to pay for the rest is anybody's guess.

"Taxes will have to rise to meet Conservative spending pledges made on the campaign trail, independent experts warn, in a stinging criticism of both big parties’ plans.

Sajid Javid, the chancellor, is relying on a £37bn “cushion” – which has already been wiped out – to justify a string of high-cost promises to woo voters, the Institute for Fiscal Studies says."

seabird wrote: I have voted Tory,Labour even Lib once,consider myself a moderate on the political front.I will be voting Tory this time- because I don't won't Corbyn and is left wing lot anywhere near No10.
Corbyn once stated Chavez rise to power in Venezuela as a model for real socialism.Venezuela went from the richest country in South America to the brink of bankruptcy and social ruin.
Like most far left idealism , on paper sounds perfect..Chavez brought in a modern national health system ,promoted a equality wage system ,brought major welfare reform ,premoted public funding ,starving private funding. Unfortunately all this needs funding from somewhere ,even the oil rich state could not fund such social reforms ,especially when oil prices are subseptable to fluctuation.
Corbyn as already if elected will start the ball rolling in the same
direction. I just hope labour finally see sense and get rid of this dangerous person ,then appoint a leader to give us the alternative to the Torries.

You don't want Corbyn in no 10 but you're happy for Boris to be then which I don't understand?

I'm not sure how any working class person could vote Tory after living through the Thatcher years.

Keeping things local, John Stevenson ALWAYS voted against gay rights legislation, he ALWAYS voted against gay marriage, he voted 51 times to reduce welfare spending, he voted 20 times to raise VAT, he voted 14 times against a banker's tax, he consistently voted for mass surveillance powers, voted to sell off state forests, voted to cull badgers, voted 11 times to restrict legal aid.

More often than not he was simply toeing the party line but he - and the Tories - are no friends of ordinary Carlisle people.

You almost certainly have gay friends or family. By voting for the Tories you say they should be treated differently. And even if you don't, you probably know a few poor people who are struggling. And when you vote Tory, they will continue to struggle for years to come.

Didn't say I was happy with Boris ,think he could well take us to far to the right for my liking however I am quite prepared to vote for him to keep the far left revolution out.

someone I know summed it up for me, "It's like picking somebody to pork your Mrs, you don't want it to happen but you have to choose someone"