Bury's new financial trouble?

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28 Aug 2019 10:37 #301 by BlueofBuckshaw
Replied by BlueofBuckshaw on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

Dancingbear wrote: Every club needs a Holdsworth to run them at a break even level. Should be mandatory and appointed by the league.


Bolton had one of them, not sure it's working out too well
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28 Aug 2019 10:56 #302 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
A football club just isn't a football club its a sense of comunity pride and for some a sense to get up in the morning. It was sad to see the 78 year old who has been to watch Bury since he was 8 and the chap who lost his parents and wife and now his football club.

Day caused the issues at Bury and caused all the debt. He obviously wanted rid, he knew the trouble him and the club were in, and gave it to Dale for a £1 a chancer, charlaten and someone that didn't know Bury existed. His background was making money in failed businesses by liquidating them or creating IVA/CVAs, he shouldn't of been allowed anywhere near a football club.

NS got criticised on here for suggesting a fan ownership model. I think thats the only way forward to stop chancers and people with no knowledge owning football clubs. Theres also not a lot of money in lower league football - god knows what the solution is really.

Carlisle United will use Bury, and maybe Bolton, as an excuse for the way there have done things. It doesn't excuse the lack of professionalism, customer service though and there's also plenty of clubs that are doing things right. We do though have a club, without EWM we wouldn't.

Football is going down the pan quickly, the premier league is thriving but without the lower leagues there'll be no premier league or it'll be very boring with the same 20 teams.

At least we’re not Stockport
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28 Aug 2019 11:13 #303 by carwash
Replied by carwash on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
The main drawback with fan ownership is it doesn't generate enough cash. Only if you can be like Exeter and develop and sell players on a regular basis can it work. Funnily enough I think that's the way we are heading. I foresee at some point in the next few years the Trust will end up with 100% of the voting shares as the custodians step aside. Raising cash will then be the problem.

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28 Aug 2019 11:15 #304 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
The Trust with 100%?!

Good grief, what a thought...

Win or Lose, Up The Blues!

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28 Aug 2019 11:17 #305 by Waltero
Replied by Waltero on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
The ongoing problems we have is the club's lack of engagement with the fans,the unprofessional catering facilities. Rochdale have an excellent social club, pleasant staff, good range of drinks and the stewarding was good. We were made to feel welcome. Softened the blow off defeat

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28 Aug 2019 11:43 #306 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

CCU wrote: The Trust with 100%?!

Good grief, what a thought...


The club would die very quickly, ours would.

At least we’re not Stockport

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28 Aug 2019 11:51 #307 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
Cambridge's trust just agreed to sell their shares to the chairman. Putting in half a million a year for the foreseeable future

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28 Aug 2019 12:32 #308 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

Markovitch wrote: Cambridge's trust just agreed to sell their shares to the chairman. Putting in half a million a year for the foreseeable future


That’ll make the problem worse. Clubs need to be more self sustainable.

There's only one way of life and that's your own!!!

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28 Aug 2019 13:05 #309 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
Reading his comments the manager etc will be under pressure to get that down. There seem to be an increasing number of clubs in our division which are trying to live in their means and if we, Cheltenham, Port Vale can survive then life will get easier as more copy our model.

Maybe one of the outcomes of the Bury/Bolton affairs will be a renewed push by chairman to get wages under control, so we'll see the wage cap cut further which in turn will make players and agents more realistic in their expectations. That for me is the key. Nicky Adams was a good player but £400k a year, bloody hell. And of course he never got it in the end

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28 Aug 2019 13:33 #310 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
Nicky Adams wasn’t on anything like £400k a Season!

Win or Lose, Up The Blues!

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28 Aug 2019 13:53 #311 by Taffy-P
Replied by Taffy-P on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
What ever Nicky Adams was on It was more than Carlisle could afford or wanted to pay.Clubs that overspend but pressure on other clubs in the same league to spend more and more as supporters keep saying we can’t even compete with Bury etc etc

Bury still owe clubs for the away tickets they sold last season So we loose too !!!

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28 Aug 2019 13:54 #312 by franksidebottom
Replied by franksidebottom on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

CCU wrote: Nicky Adams wasn’t on anything like £400k a Season!


Ask him for proof of this claim!!

“Yeah, I know of Barry. Bit of a fantasist” - John Courtenay 2003

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28 Aug 2019 13:55 #313 by tommycoleman1
Replied by tommycoleman1 on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
The money owed to us by Bury has been paid

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
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28 Aug 2019 13:57 #314 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

tommycoleman1 wrote: The money owed to us by Bury has been paid

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


Bit of a misleading statement by NC as Bury paid up in May, albeit late.

Bury don't owe anyone, in terms of ticket sales.

At least we’re not Stockport

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28 Aug 2019 14:01 - 28 Aug 2019 14:01 #315 by BlueBanana
Replied by BlueBanana on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

CCU wrote: Nicky Adams wasn’t on anything like £400k a Season!

Last edit: 28 Aug 2019 14:01 by BlueBanana.

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28 Aug 2019 14:07 #316 by franksidebottom
Replied by franksidebottom on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

CarlisleSaints wrote: What does this Dale character achieve with the club going into liquidation? Is he left with nothing?


Quite a lot by the looks of it...

www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/23...-steve-dale-daughter

His business model is to buy up failing company’s, liquidate them and sell off the assets, 43 of the 51 company’s he’s been involved with have ended up liquidated - he’s an asset stripper.

From the article it looks like he’s gone into Bury, don’t forget he has no interest in football and didn’t even know a Bury had a football club, bought a £7m debt off a creditor for £70,000, engineered the approval of a CVA which pays creditors 25% of their debts and walks away with £1.75m. Not a bad return for his £70,001 outlay.

The EFL are happy that its rigorous fit and proper persons criteria was met on takeover though so at least they’re in the clear.

“Yeah, I know of Barry. Bit of a fantasist” - John Courtenay 2003

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28 Aug 2019 14:09 #317 by pie
Replied by pie on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

CCU wrote: Nicky Adams wasn’t on anything like £400k a Season!


Base salary no but when you've added in employers contributions to NI, his car allowance and then the hefty Marko bullshit factor it comes out pretty close to 400k.
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28 Aug 2019 14:23 #318 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
How many season tickets did they sell I wonder and if any will the supporters get reimbursed?

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28 Aug 2019 14:50 #319 by franksidebottom
Replied by franksidebottom on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
More criticism of the EFL in this article, interesting read which basically says the EFL were in denial about the financial state of many of its members when warned by experts two years ago.

www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/08/20/...e-bolton-bury-faced/

“Yeah, I know of Barry. Bit of a fantasist” - John Courtenay 2003

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28 Aug 2019 15:18 #320 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
In the model that they use do you think its possible to compare say Sheffield Wednesday with Sheffield United? And if the answer is no do you not think maybe that is the reason why the report was ignored?

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28 Aug 2019 15:24 #321 by franksidebottom
Replied by franksidebottom on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
Do shut up you tedious man.

“Yeah, I know of Barry. Bit of a fantasist” - John Courtenay 2003
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28 Aug 2019 15:46 #322 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
I have a genuine question Frank. Why when you post are we not allowed to ask questions? You posted how inept the efl is because they rejected the report. So explain the calculations in the report. Must be completely obvious to a man with your knowledge. So come. Or are you just drawing conclusions on something you have zero Understanding of?
I await your usual hilarity

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28 Aug 2019 15:50 #323 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

pie wrote:

CCU wrote: Nicky Adams wasn’t on anything like £400k a Season!


Base salary no but when you've added in employers contributions to NI, his car allowance and then the hefty Marko bullshit factor it comes out pretty close to 400k.


Go Google the 72 article. He was one of the players on 8k a week. 8x52 is?

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28 Aug 2019 16:00 #324 by pie
Replied by pie on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

Markovitch wrote:

pie wrote:

CCU wrote: Nicky Adams wasn’t on anything like £400k a Season!


Base salary no but when you've added in employers contributions to NI, his car allowance and then the hefty Marko bullshit factor it comes out pretty close to 400k.


Go Google the 72 article. He was one of the players on 8k a week. 8x52 is?


Do you honestly believe that Adams was on 8k a week? Like, honestly? Genuine question.

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28 Aug 2019 16:06 #325 by CarlisleSaints
Replied by CarlisleSaints on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

franksidebottom wrote:

CarlisleSaints wrote: What does this Dale character achieve with the club going into liquidation? Is he left with nothing?


Quite a lot by the looks of it...

www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/23...-steve-dale-daughter

His business model is to buy up failing company’s, liquidate them and sell off the assets, 43 of the 51 company’s he’s been involved with have ended up liquidated - he’s an asset stripper.

From the article it looks like he’s gone into Bury, don’t forget he has no interest in football and didn’t even know a Bury had a football club, bought a £7m debt off a creditor for £70,000, engineered the approval of a CVA which pays creditors 25% of their debts and walks away with £1.75m. Not a bad return for his £70,001 outlay.

The EFL are happy that its rigorous fit and proper persons criteria was met on takeover though so at least they’re in the clear.


Thanks, interesting read.

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28 Aug 2019 16:21 #326 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
Every team in League One except Bury who bought a season ticket have been short changed by one game.

If Bolton go belly up then a lot will miss two games.

I never knew that purchasing a season ticket was such a risk.

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28 Aug 2019 16:21 #327 by pacirv
Replied by pacirv on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
What now happens to the players still officially on their books they have to pay their way. I suppose because the transfer window is still open for the lower leagues they will be able to find other clubs.

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28 Aug 2019 16:25 #328 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

pacirv wrote: What now happens to the players still officially on their books they have to pay their way. I suppose because the transfer window is still open for the lower leagues they will be able to find other clubs.


Don't the EFL/FA cover your wage till a club goes belly up?

Could be wrong.

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28 Aug 2019 16:41 #329 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

pie wrote:

Markovitch wrote:

pie wrote:

CCU wrote: Nicky Adams wasn’t on anything like £400k a Season!


Base salary no but when you've added in employers contributions to NI, his car allowance and then the hefty Marko bullshit factor it comes out pretty close to 400k.


Go Google the 72 article. He was one of the players on 8k a week. 8x52 is?


Do you honestly believe that Adams was on 8k a week? Like, honestly? Genuine question.


I have no idea. In one of the links from Frank's article yesterday the Telegraph (?) said 3 players were on £8k a week. Jenkins and EWM have racked up £3m in losses in how many years?. Bury have £13m in total so the money has gone somewhere. Having said that there are no claims in any proper sources that they ever breached the FFP rules so maybe not.
When Bury nearly went under in 2013 the guy brought in to straighten them out was ex PWC Edinburgh. He told me the total employment cost of the 2 players we acquired, when they were at Bury, was jointly £375k pa.

Frank. The football profitability index is calculated on accounting profit. So Sheff W selling their ground and booking a profit will have a much higher score than Sheff U who still have their ground. But from an investment point of view Sheff U are much more secure because of the assets they own. This EBITD is not used much in Europe because generally it is open to manipulation. It is still used in the US, Hewlett Packard use it for divisional performance measures. It was how Enron were inflating the value of energy contracts by adding in future profits.

I know you think you understanding accounting better than any chartered accountant but here is a little light reading so you don't once again publish ignorant, ill-informed shite. Not an interestunig read
www.accountingtools.com/articles/how-to-...m-an-asset-sale.html

Similarly, Dale could get a lot more than he bargained for. The Directors Disqualification Act allows a liquidator to recover assets from a director if he has acted inappropriately. Laffy mentioned this when he was talking about trading while insolvent. Dale may well have an asset protection scheme in place and own nothing himself, but they can still go after him. Again some more training material for you to brush up on so you can get a clearer picture than just 1 old Guardian article.

www.companyrescue.co.uk/guides-knowledge...tion-explained-3737/

Might I suggest that if you don't want boring, tedious little men to constantly correct your endless errors you do some research before you publish. Just a thought

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28 Aug 2019 18:20 #330 by Urban Designer
Replied by Urban Designer on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
No way I am going to read this full thread but how much do they owe? Are the days of going into liquidation and paying a penny in the pound over?

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28 Aug 2019 18:31 #331 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

Urban Designer wrote: No way I am going to read this full thread but how much do they owe? Are the days of going into liquidation and paying a penny in the pound over?


I dont think they ever started. Liquidation isnt a CVA. This chancer has apparently sold £7 million of debt to his daughters husband for £70k and was hoping to sell the club get a CVA in place even at 25% that £70k would turn into a £1.75 million windfall. All allegedly of course.

There's only one way of life and that's your own!!!

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28 Aug 2019 18:32 #332 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
If I was a liquidator, and reading this, then you go after Dale’s personal assets to repay creditors incurred under his tenure.That will wipe the smile of his face.

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28 Aug 2019 19:23 - 28 Aug 2019 19:25 #333 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
If he has not provided the EFL with the required documentation he has failed to keep proper books and records during an insolvency. s387 Laff? Contribution to assets, voiding of non-commercial transactions for 6 or 9 months up to the insolvency and during insolvency (?) and up to 3 years in prison? Help me out, it was the 86 act in my day. HMIT and C&E were preferential creditors in those days as well.
Hopefully they will hang him out to dry
Last edit: 28 Aug 2019 19:25 by Markovitch.

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28 Aug 2019 19:27 #334 by Dancingbear
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Laffy wrote: If I was a liquidator, and reading this, then you go after Dale’s personal assets to repay creditors incurred under his tenure.That will wipe the smile of his face.


Get Kessler on the case ;)

There's only one way of life and that's your own!!!
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28 Aug 2019 20:32 #335 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
It’s probably one for the DTI on the back of a liquidator report-10 year ban as a director given the high profile.Liquidator will pursue for recovery of value for creditors if trading insolvently

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30 Aug 2019 17:28 #336 by Tonyhemmings
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Bury now threatening legal action against EFL, want to be placed in League 2 next season.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49526433

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30 Aug 2019 17:46 #337 by Bruntonpasty
Replied by Bruntonpasty on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
How they gonna pay for that then?

They don't like it up 'em!

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30 Aug 2019 17:51 #338 by orfc
Replied by orfc on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

Tonyhemmings wrote: Bury now threatening legal action against EFL, want to be placed in League 2 next season.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49526433


Which given they were on -12, and looking at further penalties for missing games, so heading for relegation anyways, is just the same as asking to be reinstated next season.
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30 Aug 2019 18:27 - 30 Aug 2019 18:29 #339 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
What i don't understand is why no one has questioned the auditors. When were the last accounts prepared? May 2017. There was nothing in them?
Last edit: 30 Aug 2019 18:29 by Markovitch.

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30 Aug 2019 18:36 #340 by nobbyblue
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I don't believe Bury had three players on 8k a week.

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30 Aug 2019 18:44 #341 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
When Luton got promoted from League Two and were splashing the cash I am sure it was mentioned that their two frontmen were on 5k each a week.

They had the cash to do it with though, cannot see Adams being on 8k but stranger things have happened.

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30 Aug 2019 19:20 - 30 Aug 2019 19:23 #342 by 182blue
Replied by 182blue on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
Yes, would be totally unfair if they were in L2 next season, much as I hope they get sorted.
Last edit: 30 Aug 2019 19:23 by 182blue.

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30 Aug 2019 19:34 #343 by Dancingbear
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They should really start at the same level as Maidstone Darlo etc had to.

There's only one way of life and that's your own!!!

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30 Aug 2019 19:35 #344 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
Which Bury manager signed Nicky Adams? Ryan 'Keith Curle is my hero' Lowe claims that the manager before him paid astronomical wages, but he fixed it.
Nine grand Nicky is a myth, it is alleged
www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/fo...s-promotion-16834840
Must have gone some to burn through £13m

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30 Aug 2019 19:40 #345 by Laffy
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Oh to be an EFL board member at this time

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30 Aug 2019 19:53 #346 by Markovitch
Replied by Markovitch on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

Laffy wrote: Oh to be an EFL board member at this time

Why? What have they done wrong?
If you look at our club we have jenks worth 20m with 4m in cash who would give an arm to save the club. Day is worth a billion but appears not to give a toss. How is the efl supposed to have that level of knowledge of all its members, affiliates, projects, grantees?

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30 Aug 2019 19:55 #347 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
As Bury have been kicked out of the league but the contracted players will still be members of the FA - I wonder if it is still like it was in the past where the FA cover your wages?

Might be a possibility unless they are wound up at the High Court or wherever it goes.

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30 Aug 2019 20:29 #348 by seesaw50
Replied by seesaw50 on topic Bury's new financial trouble?

franksidebottom wrote:

CarlisleSaints wrote: What does this Dale character achieve with the club going into liquidation? Is he left with nothing?


Quite a lot by the looks of it...

www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/23...-steve-dale-daughter

His business model is to buy up failing company’s, liquidate them and sell off the assets, 43 of the 51 company’s he’s been involved with have ended up liquidated - he’s an asset stripper.

From the article it looks like he’s gone into Bury, don’t forget he has no interest in football and didn’t even know a Bury had a football club, bought a £7m debt off a creditor for £70,000, engineered the approval of a CVA which pays creditors 25% of their debts and walks away with £1.75m. Not a bad return for his £70,001 outlay.

The EFL are happy that its rigorous fit and proper persons criteria was met on takeover though so at least they’re in the clear.


"His business model is to buy up failing companies..........."

Fine, maybe.....but a football club is no ordinary company

Whoever at the EFL waved this transfer of ownership thro must be culpable ...the tangled web of what was done by the previous guy Day, will take some untangling but ultimately the buck stops with Dale (and the EFL)

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30 Aug 2019 20:31 #349 by Laffy
Replied by Laffy on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
Well they have a fit and proper test-who on earth polices and runs that when you have loons running a number of clubs?

Rather like the SFA being caught short on sectarianism-for fear of rocking the boat, we are looking at a bunch of ineffective unqualified white old men presiding over a real shit fest.

The age of being a non exec for an honorarium and free first class travel is coming to an end

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30 Aug 2019 20:44 #350 by seesaw50
Replied by seesaw50 on topic Bury's new financial trouble?
Careful laffy...."unqualified white old men " tut tut

It should be simple to Police...how many club sales are going thro at any one time. I dont dispute, as in this case, you'd probably have to be a Philadelphia lawyer, but a dedicated team including lawyers, should make short work if it. If info isn't forthcoming, the deal is blocked. Simples

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