CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

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21 Jan 2019 11:15 - 23 Jan 2019 17:32 #1 by BoardAdmin
CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19 was created by BoardAdmin
Hello folks,

As per previous threads, please let us know any questions/topics to raise at the upcoming CUSG meeting.

Further to discussion at the CUSG Meeting on Mon 17 Dec 2018, this is the agreed format that we submit any questions.

- Mon before a Meeting, Thread set up for any questions, with a closing date of the Friday.
- Fri eve before a Meeting, questions collated by TCN and forwarded to all parties.
- Mon of a Meeting, any queries or clarifications regarding questions will be dealt with.
- Thurs eve, all answers to be received, to enable ourselves to collate and prepare for publication.
- Fri, usual publishing of Minutes from Meeting with Q&A’s then added onto Thread on Messageboard.

Cheers!

Admin.

Web - www.thecumbrians.net
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Last edit: 23 Jan 2019 17:32 by CCU.

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21 Jan 2019 11:28 - 21 Jan 2019 17:10 #2 by Moylesey
Replied by Moylesey on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
Are the board aware of a consensus from fans that they are traditionally seen to fail to invest and strengthen (and on occasions even weaken) our first team in the January window when in a positive position in the league?

Do the board think this is fair and what can we expect for the rest of the transfer window to allay these fears and do the board really appreciate the opportunity cost of losing our better players or bringing in better ones?
Last edit: 21 Jan 2019 17:10 by Moylesey.

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21 Jan 2019 11:47 - 21 Jan 2019 11:52 #3 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
Chairman:

Why do some groups have different amount of reps attend? How is this worked out?

What is the aim of the group?

R66 and some CUSAT reps haven't attended for a while, when is it decided when they are no longer invited to attend?

Would you consider your decision to leave your position if no one else can be found?

The Trust:

You stated in last months responces that "members wish for us to remain in the tent" however you admitted you haven't universally asked all members, how did you reach this conclusion?

At present members can come to you via email and surgeries yet colectively members only have one chance per year to ask questions via the AGM, do you feel this is acceptable? Because if members don't know what is being discussed how can they offer their thoughts?

The London branch appear far more professional in their approach, have you asked them for help or would you consider following their model?

In last months responces you stated you are disapointed that a small section of supporters are attacking fans groups/trust trying to help. Having looked on social media it appears the majority, if not all, "attacks" are against the trust and its not a small minority. Therefore do you feel you are above critisism? Why do you feel supporters don't feel youre representing them? Can you understand why some supporters are reluctant to join as their voices aren't heard/ignored?

Why did you change your constitution to remove the time limit a person can be on the board for, helping members like Norman Steele remain on the board?

Can you explain what Jim and Billy do on a daily/weekly basis?

The Club:

In NC last responces, he mentioned he can't do what he would like to, can he elaborate?

Has NC ever considered he's position?

Does NC feel that a £21 walk up ticket is value for money? Could we have a breakdown of what that £21 covers and used for in a percentage in the club. For example 50% to team 10% stadium facilities.

Have the stakeholders/directors ever discussed not getting promoted while we have been in league 2?

Have any of our last 3 managers been told by directors/stakeholders not to go for promotion or automatic promotion?

Sheridan and Curle have alluded to the club being externally ran presumably by EWM, is this the case?

Will you say this season has been yet another failure if we don't get promoted?

DSG:

Do you feel embarrassed putting your name/groups name asking companies for help for a £40 lock?

What is the purpose of the group, apart from a list of disabled supporters?

Decesions have been made without consulting members/comitee. Why was this?

Do you feel the statement you released via the club, without consulting members or the comitee, was completely "tinpot"?

You stated it was a minefield working out who is available for a free carer ticket with pip and universal credit. Why was it a minefield?, as the EFL have a standard and universal credit doesn't come into it, why didn't you ask for help?

London Branch:

Have you offered to help the trust in anyway?

Would some of your board members consider joining the trusts board?

Messageboard:

It was stated that a rant occured at the last meeting, in terms of what the group stands for, this wasn't placed in the minutes, Why was this?

You considered leaving the group, what would it take to do this?

Why have members suddenly been banned?

What is your policy towards personal insults on the site?

R66:

Do you think its time to leave the group, what's the reason for your non attendance.

DSG, Cusat, R66, Scottish

Why didn't you answer last months questions?

At least we’re not Stockport
Last edit: 21 Jan 2019 11:52 by Mullen103.

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21 Jan 2019 12:03 #4 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
Impressive list with 32mins notice Mullen!

I’m guessing you have some already pre-wrote ready for the post?!

Win or Lose, Up The Blues!

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21 Jan 2019 12:04 #5 by seesaw50
Replied by seesaw50 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
Bloody hell mullen !! Hope the attending mods edit this latest effort of yours

To have been born Cumbrian
is to have won the lottery of life !

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21 Jan 2019 12:08 #6 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

CCU wrote: Impressive list with 32mins notice Mullen!

I’m guessing you have some already pre-wrote ready for the post?!


Correct, did it over the month so I didn't forget.

At least we’re not Stockport

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21 Jan 2019 12:10 #7 by Bumble
Replied by Bumble on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
Heavens above!!

Can we have a limit of two questions per person per meeting?

Then everyone can have the chance to ask a question without feeling they are wasting other folks time or getting involved in private vendettas.
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21 Jan 2019 12:11 #8 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

seesaw50 wrote: Bloody hell mullen !! Hope the attending mods edit this latest effort of yours


Shouldn't

Last month I remember people saying, there was too many/silly questions, they wouldn't get answered. Some didn't answer (the usual)

But we got to see the London branch answer in a good light and find out more about them, the trust with their usual silly answers and the club NC coming out of it well.

At least we’re not Stockport

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21 Jan 2019 12:14 #9 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

Bumble wrote: Heavens above!!

Can we have a limit of two questions per person per meeting?

Then everyone can have the chance to ask a question without feeling they are wasting other folks time or getting involved in private vendettas.


If that happens, then I wish all my questions to be off the table.

You can ask as many/whatever you want as this wasn't stated prior!

At least we’re not Stockport

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21 Jan 2019 12:29 #10 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
To be fair not all questions are from me, the majority are, but there's a few from others that don't post on here.

The messageboard reps should honour and ask/send all questions asked. It's up to the relevant party to answer them. They get asked prior to the meeting anyway.

If the messageboard/cusg want to change the rules to 2 questions per person than they can do/suggest that for future meetings and i'd have to work with that. But they haven't done that for this one.

There's no personal vendettas, it's about people doing their job!

At least we’re not Stockport

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21 Jan 2019 12:42 - 21 Jan 2019 12:52 #11 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
If some questions are from others, can you let us know which ones and from who?

Drop us an email if needs be, however we need to know who is asking what in the interest of transparency etc.

Cheers.

Win or Lose, Up The Blues!
Last edit: 21 Jan 2019 12:52 by CCU.

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21 Jan 2019 12:50 #12 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

CCU wrote: If some questions are from others, can you let us know which ones and from who?

Drop us an email if needs be, however we need to know who is asking what in the interest of transparency etc.

Cheers.


Will do - but why?

Are you not allowed to ask Anonymously? What about those usernames that don't wish their names to be known?

At least we’re not Stockport

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21 Jan 2019 12:55 #13 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

Mullen103 wrote:

CCU wrote: If some questions are from others, can you let us know which ones and from who?

Drop us an email if needs be, however we need to know who is asking what in the interest of transparency etc.

Cheers.


Will do - but why?

Are you not allowed to ask Anonymously? What about those usernames that don't wish their names to be known?


We ask on behalf of users, and never volunteer their personal name. We do however check our database to ensure it is ‘real’ people who are asking.

This point was actually raised by another Group, but I assured them that we ensure we check the users are real.

If they’re not Users of the Forum, we’d be within our remit to redirect them to the CUSG email, after all we represent this Forum, but on this occasion we’ll ask them.

Win or Lose, Up The Blues!

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21 Jan 2019 13:01 #14 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
Chairman:

Why do some groups have different amount of reps attend? How is this worked out? - From Micky Mouse

What is the aim of the group? From Tinky Winky

R66 and some CUSAT reps haven't attended for a while, when is it decided when they are no longer invited to attend? From Donald Duck

Would you consider your decision to leave your position if no one else can be found? From Bob Twinkle

The Trust:

You stated in last months responces that "members wish for us to remain in the tent" however you admitted you haven't universally asked all members, how did you reach this conclusion? From Ivor Biggen

At present members can come to you via email and surgeries yet colectively members only have one chance per year to ask questions via the AGM, do you feel this is acceptable? Because if members don't know what is being discussed how can they offer their thoughts? From Fred Winterbottom

The London branch appear far more professional in their approach, have you asked them for help or would you consider following their model? From Ian Smith

In last months responces you stated you are disapointed that a small section of supporters are attacking fans groups/trust trying to help. Having looked on social media it appears the majority, if not all, "attacks" are against the trust and its not a small minority. Therefore do you feel you are above critisism? Why do you feel supporters don't feel youre representing them? Can you understand why some supporters are reluctant to join as their voices aren't heard/ignored? From Me

Why did you change your constitution to remove the time limit a person can be on the board for, helping members like Norman Steele remain on the board? From Kitty Kat

Can you explain what Jim and Billy do on a daily/weekly basis? From Doggy doggy woof woof

The Club:

In NC last responces, he mentioned he can't do what he would like to, can he elaborate? From Tell me more

Has NC ever considered he's position? from go walk out the door

Does NC feel that a £21 walk up ticket is value for money? Could we have a breakdown of what that £21 covers and used for in a percentage in the club. For example 50% to team 10% stadium facilities. from Abba

Have the stakeholders/directors ever discussed not getting promoted while we have been in league 2? from liar liar pants on fire

Have any of our last 3 managers been told by directors/stakeholders not to go for promotion or automatic promotion? from tom and Jerry

Sheridan and Curle have alluded to the club being externally ran presumably by EWM, is this the case? from Dougle McDougal

Will you say this season has been yet another failure if we don't get promoted? From Bobby West

DSG:

Do you feel embarrassed putting your name/groups name asking companies for help for a £40 lock? from Me

What is the purpose of the group, apart from a list of disabled supporters? from SL

Decesions have been made without consulting members/comitee. Why was this? From SL

Do you feel the statement you released via the club, without consulting members or the comitee, was completely "tinpot"? from SL

You stated it was a minefield working out who is available for a free carer ticket with pip and universal credit. Why was it a minefield?, as the EFL have a standard and universal credit doesn't come into it, why didn't you ask for help? from me

London Branch:

Have you offered to help the trust in anyway? from the Queen of Raffles

Would some of your board members consider joining the trusts board? From Mr Don't do it

Messageboard:

It was stated that a rant occured at the last meeting, in terms of what the group stands for, this wasn't placed in the minutes, Why was this? From get it in

You considered leaving the group, what would it take to do this? from Go and walk out the door

Why have members suddenly been banned? from kim jong il

What is your policy towards personal insults on the site? from Nigel Farage

R66:

Do you think its time to leave the group, what's the reason for your non attendance. from Nigel Farage

DSG, Cusat, R66, Scottish

Why didn't you answer last months questions? From Theresa May

At least we’re not Stockport

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21 Jan 2019 13:05 #15 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
I make that 3 Questions you’d like asked then?

Sorted.

Win or Lose, Up The Blues!

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21 Jan 2019 13:07 #16 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

CCU wrote:

Mullen103 wrote:

CCU wrote: If some questions are from others, can you let us know which ones and from who?

Drop us an email if needs be, however we need to know who is asking what in the interest of transparency etc.

Cheers.


Will do - but why?

Are you not allowed to ask Anonymously? What about those usernames that don't wish their names to be known?


We ask on behalf of users, and never volunteer their personal name. We do however check our database to ensure it is ‘real’ people who are asking.

This point was actually raised by another Group, but I assured them that we ensure we check the users are real.

If they’re not Users of the Forum, we’d be within our remit to redirect them to the CUSG email, after all we represent this Forum, but on this occasion we’ll ask them.


I appreciate you asking them on this occasion.

If you wish to take up Bumbles suggestion can you state that in the next meeting and i'll limit it two questions. I don't think you should change it half way through?

Why though shouldn't anonymous questions be asked, which group are complaining? Could we therefore ask which member of the group are answering the questions?

Its [censored] I N G hard work!

At least we’re not Stockport

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21 Jan 2019 13:11 #17 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

CCU wrote: I make that 3 Questions you’d like asked then?

Sorted.


It's up to you how you proceed, but there's good questions in there.

Are you really going to begrudge Donald Duck because he can't log into he's account due to he's webbed feet?

At least we’re not Stockport

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21 Jan 2019 14:27 #18 by Lakelandterrier
Replied by Lakelandterrier on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
When is the next fans forum?
Wpuld be beneficial to have a coaching/players forum and a Directors forum soon, so its like a mid season review.

Cumbrian and Proud

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21 Jan 2019 14:31 #19 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

Mullen103 wrote:

CCU wrote:

Mullen103 wrote:

CCU wrote: If some questions are from others, can you let us know which ones and from who?

Drop us an email if needs be, however we need to know who is asking what in the interest of transparency etc.

Cheers.


Will do - but why?

Are you not allowed to ask Anonymously? What about those usernames that don't wish their names to be known?


We ask on behalf of users, and never volunteer their personal name. We do however check our database to ensure it is ‘real’ people who are asking.

This point was actually raised by another Group, but I assured them that we ensure we check the users are real.

If they’re not Users of the Forum, we’d be within our remit to redirect them to the CUSG email, after all we represent this Forum, but on this occasion we’ll ask them.


I appreciate you asking them on this occasion.

If you wish to take up Bumbles suggestion can you state that in the next meeting and i'll limit it two questions. I don't think you should change it half way through?

Why though shouldn't anonymous questions be asked, which group are complaining? Could we therefore ask which member of the group are answering the questions?

Its [censored] I N G hard work!


I take it this hasn't been answered quickly as you need to speak to the group(the trust!) if you can say.

So are going to ask the full list or just three?

At least we’re not Stockport

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21 Jan 2019 15:12 #20 by DeckchairBlue
Replied by DeckchairBlue on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
You know it would have been simpler just to say the questions are all from you don't you Richard, rather than being a nob when the mods asked a reasonable question.

Seems that your happy to criticise the messageboard attending these meetings yet still use them as a monthly opportunity to vent your spleen.
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21 Jan 2019 15:19 #21 by CCU
Replied by CCU on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

Mullen103 wrote:

Mullen103 wrote:

CCU wrote:

Mullen103 wrote:

CCU wrote: If some questions are from others, can you let us know which ones and from who?

Drop us an email if needs be, however we need to know who is asking what in the interest of transparency etc.

Cheers.


Will do - but why?

Are you not allowed to ask Anonymously? What about those usernames that don't wish their names to be known?


We ask on behalf of users, and never volunteer their personal name. We do however check our database to ensure it is ‘real’ people who are asking.

This point was actually raised by another Group, but I assured them that we ensure we check the users are real.

If they’re not Users of the Forum, we’d be within our remit to redirect them to the CUSG email, after all we represent this Forum, but on this occasion we’ll ask them.


I appreciate you asking them on this occasion.

If you wish to take up Bumbles suggestion can you state that in the next meeting and i'll limit it two questions. I don't think you should change it half way through?

Why though shouldn't anonymous questions be asked, which group are complaining? Could we therefore ask which member of the group are answering the questions?

Its [censored] I N G hard work!


I take it this hasn't been answered quickly as you need to speak to the group(the trust!) if you can say.

So are going to ask the full list or just three?


Just got off a train to Glasgow actually! We do have a life away from the Board...

Win or Lose, Up The Blues!

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21 Jan 2019 15:25 #22 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

DeckchairBlue wrote: You know it would have been simpler just to say the questions are all from you don't you Richard, rather than being a nob when the mods asked a reasonable question.

Seems that your happy to criticise the messageboard attending these meetings yet still use them as a monthly opportunity to vent your spleen.


Because they make it so hard work! using NS technique THERE WAS NO LIMIT!!! NO NO NO NO

Christ sake!

I've never criticised them for going, in fact i've been complimentary.

Just don't bother asking the questions if its too much bother as it appears to be!

At least we’re not Stockport

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21 Jan 2019 15:26 #23 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

CCU wrote:

Mullen103 wrote:

Mullen103 wrote:

CCU wrote:

Mullen103 wrote:

CCU wrote: If some questions are from others, can you let us know which ones and from who?

Drop us an email if needs be, however we need to know who is asking what in the interest of transparency etc.

Cheers.


Will do - but why?

Are you not allowed to ask Anonymously? What about those usernames that don't wish their names to be known?


We ask on behalf of users, and never volunteer their personal name. We do however check our database to ensure it is ‘real’ people who are asking.

This point was actually raised by another Group, but I assured them that we ensure we check the users are real.

If they’re not Users of the Forum, we’d be within our remit to redirect them to the CUSG email, after all we represent this Forum, but on this occasion we’ll ask them.


I appreciate you asking them on this occasion.

If you wish to take up Bumbles suggestion can you state that in the next meeting and i'll limit it two questions. I don't think you should change it half way through?

Why though shouldn't anonymous questions be asked, which group are complaining? Could we therefore ask which member of the group are answering the questions?

Its [censored] I N G hard work!


I take it this hasn't been answered quickly as you need to speak to the group(the trust!) if you can say.

So are going to ask the full list or just three?


Just got off a train to Glasgow actually! We do have a life away from the Board...


Is it possible to answer the question now?

At least we’re not Stockport

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22 Jan 2019 07:36 #24 by Mouldy
Replied by Mouldy on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
Calm your beans Mullen. We’ve taken flack (and defended the questions) every single meeting for sitting asking every single one of your questions even though a few of them have been asked previously, or in different words - or just aren’t that relevant for discussion at CUSG.

Hardly making it hard work for you in my book that mate.

My thoughts are that there’s perhaps a few of your questions that are simply best directed to the relevant groups and not for discussion at the the CUSG meeting - someone’s personal thoughts on non exec directors for example. There are some that you can find answers to without the group or asking them directly - aim of CUSG for example is on the CU O/S.

To answer your question it was CUOSC that said something along the lines of ‘we don’t answer anonymous questions but we hold a surgery every home game so please come and see us and we’ll have a chat’. Other groups then expressed their thoughts that its perhaps unfair to get blind criticism or probing questions when they don’t know who the person asking is, I can see their point to some degree. That’s when we (CCU) assured folk we check anonymous questions.

There have been a number emailed to us over the course so as to be anonymous and we then check they have registered accounts etc. We want folk who are not confident enough to speak up at a forum to have a platform so if folk genuinely want to be anonymous - fine - just drop us an email from a registered account and it goes no further than that. It’s not to make it hard, it’s just to make sure we’re asking questions from the folk registered to tc.net.

Perhaps if you’re representing people you could speak to Simon (chair) and ask your fans group to join CUSG and you could represent them at meetings.

all views my own

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22 Jan 2019 08:23 #25 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
But you now send questions prior to the meeting, to be answered before.

Of course the groups don’t want to answer “probing” questions or any critism.

If I ask them direct to the group, they don’t answer, apart from the trust so if I make them public they have no excuse.

I get the feeling you don’t want to upset anybody so don’t want to ask probing questions. Just a feeling me and others have.

I don’t really want to join the group, but if that now appears the only way you can ask any questions of “criticism” might be only way.

It’s hard work mouldy as people change rules as they go along. You asked for questions I gave you some, now you don’t want to ask them or want to place a limit.

If there’s questions I’ve asked that you may answer prior to the meeting then go for it.

At least we’re not Stockport

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22 Jan 2019 08:50 - 22 Jan 2019 08:51 #26 by Lufbrablue
Replied by Lufbrablue on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
Question to all parties at the meeting:
Would you rather fight one horse sized duck or one hundred duck sized horses? (There is only one correct answer).
Lufbrablue, 37 and 1/2 years, Newcastle upon Tyne
Last edit: 22 Jan 2019 08:51 by Lufbrablue.

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22 Jan 2019 10:49 - 22 Jan 2019 10:50 #27 by thesilentone
Replied by thesilentone on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
My question (s) are the same as last time.

Why is there not much more effort from all Groups to raise funds ?

Perhaps (if agreed) each Group could set itself a simple target for fund raising each year.

That is my question.

However, I think an interesting debate for the group, (that could lead to funding) is change.

The FA has stuck religiously to time schedules and formats, some of which are now outdated. Such as kick off times and long-distance away matches during the week. Surely there is a place for a Company in the lower divisions that can stream live league games on behalf of the Clubs ?
Main consideration should be given to those out on a limb, like Carlisle, Plymouth, Exeter etc, etc, etc.
The matches could be streamed to the home Clubs inside facilities, where we could all turn up, have a beer, enjoy the atmosphere all for a nominal amount.

The EFL has led the way on this, however that is for the EFL...

Now, I'm sure there are barriers to this idea, but surely a debate and some form of research should be done to see if it has legs.
Last edit: 22 Jan 2019 10:50 by thesilentone.

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22 Jan 2019 11:00 #28 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
As I understand it you mail the questions to them in advance so not sure how the questions asked take up any amount of time in the meeting.

The whole thing is a complete and utter shambles that a message board shouldn't have anything to do with.

Last night the demos at Bolton were organised and led by 3 of their messageboards as like us the fans their don't like the stance of their trust maybe your time and efforts would be better spent doing the same rather than taking arse licking lessons from them t w a t s at the Trust

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22 Jan 2019 11:19 #29 by Mouldy
Replied by Mouldy on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
We’ve never said we want to limit questions Mullen. Bumble has suggested it a few posts up but that’s the first time it’s been mentioned. We are there to ask questions submitted from tc.net posters, if your anonymous ones are from posters, great we’ll ask them. If not just drop us an email and we’ll take it from there. I think it’s perhaps the case they are all from you but you thought saying some were anon may take some criticism away from you for asking so many. Admittedly, I could be wrong and if I am, sorry.

I’m not in the slightest bothered about asking the questions and will continue to do so, but I stand by my comments that some aren’t relevant for CUSG meetings.

NS - correct, but this is the first time we’ve ran with the newly agreed question format. I don’t believe for one second you actually think the questions are sent, answers are provided (or not) and there’s no discussion in the meetings, so there’s always going to be some time expended. If we can reduce that by eliminating non relevant or repeated questions and some can be asked direct to groups - brilliant. If the groups aren’t responding, we’ll say that when they suggested contacting them direct.

Wherever this notion of us being in bed with the trust has come from, I can categorically say (on behalf of myself) there is not a single member of the trust board that I would join in bed. In an attempt to eliminate all doubt, I have no confidence in the trust as shareholders of Carlisle United or as fans representatives in their current guise. I think they fail on a number of levels to even function, let alone be productive.

all views my own

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22 Jan 2019 11:22 - 22 Jan 2019 11:23 #30 by DordogneBlue
Replied by DordogneBlue on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
Hi, long time reader of the board, have finally took the plunge and registered!

Could you ask the club why their social media outlets are so chaotic?

Things I’ve noticed include the two media people tweeting exactly the same as the club account, what purpose does this serve? It looks silly on twitter.

Also, why after some games do we not see highlights advertised? The Northampton game didn’t see any posted. Yes we got beat but I and I’m guessing many others would still like to watch.

There seems to be no structure to the output the media team do, something the club need to look at?

Thank you.
Last edit: 22 Jan 2019 11:23 by DordogneBlue.
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22 Jan 2019 11:33 #31 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

Mouldy wrote: We’ve never said we want to limit questions Mullen. Bumble has suggested it a few posts up but that’s the first time it’s been mentioned. We are there to ask questions submitted from tc.net posters, if your anonymous ones are from posters, great we’ll ask them. If not just drop us an email and we’ll take it from there. I think it’s perhaps the case they are all from you but you thought saying some were anon may take some criticism away from you for asking so many. Admittedly, I could be wrong and if I am, sorry.

I’m not in the slightest bothered about asking the questions and will continue to do so, but I stand by my comments that some aren’t relevant for CUSG meetings.

NS - correct, but this is the first time we’ve ran with the newly agreed question format. I don’t believe for one second you actually think the questions are sent, answers are provided (or not) and there’s no discussion in the meetings, so there’s always going to be some time expended. If we can reduce that by eliminating non relevant or repeated questions and some can be asked direct to groups - brilliant. If the groups aren’t responding, we’ll say that when they suggested contacting them direct.

Wherever this notion of us being in bed with the trust has come from, I can categorically say (on behalf of myself) there is not a single member of the trust board that I would join in bed. In an attempt to eliminate all doubt, I have no confidence in the trust as shareholders of Carlisle United or as fans representatives in their current guise. I think they fail on a number of levels to even function, let alone be productive.


Simply by engaging with them by attending the meetings means you are in bed with them whether you like it or not.

You must have attended half a dozen meetings now and i.d be interested what exactly you think that six months has achieved and unless your keeping things very close to your chests [ which you shouldn't be doing as your there to represent the members of this board, not yourselves ] you don't appear to have found out anything about what's going on re Day and EWM which for me is the only possible reason for attending.

Youd be much better getting out and start arranging a few events aimed at shaming the people who are in the know. Summers coming lets have a few rambles lets start with one to Weatheral

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22 Jan 2019 11:57 #32 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

Mouldy wrote: We’ve never said we want to limit questions Mullen. Bumble has suggested it a few posts up but that’s the first time it’s been mentioned. We are there to ask questions submitted from tc.net posters, if your anonymous ones are from posters, great we’ll ask them. If not just drop us an email and we’ll take it from there. I think it’s perhaps the case they are all from you but you thought saying some were anon may take some criticism away from you for asking so many. Admittedly, I could be wrong and if I am, sorry.

I’m not in the slightest bothered about asking the questions and will continue to do so, but I stand by my comments that some aren’t relevant for CUSG meetings.

NS - correct, but this is the first time we’ve ran with the newly agreed question format. I don’t believe for one second you actually think the questions are sent, answers are provided (or not) and there’s no discussion in the meetings, so there’s always going to be some time expended. If we can reduce that by eliminating non relevant or repeated questions and some can be asked direct to groups - brilliant. If the groups aren’t responding, we’ll say that when they suggested contacting them direct.

Wherever this notion of us being in bed with the trust has come from, I can categorically say (on behalf of myself) there is not a single member of the trust board that I would join in bed. In an attempt to eliminate all doubt, I have no confidence in the trust as shareholders of Carlisle United or as fans representatives in their current guise. I think they fail on a number of levels to even function, let alone be productive.


I presumed, maybe wrongly, by CCU that only 3 would be asked. Apologies if wrong.

Yes the majority are from me, the ones labelled SL in the DSG section aren't, they are from my mate that can't see, after a discussion he's obviously not a poster on here. The one about promotion being a failure was another asked by him. The one about EWM/Sheridan/Curle was from a family member and not a poster on here.

Can you confirm if the questions submitted by myself will be asked?

It's quite obvious that the questions have caused some issue. Some embracing them like yourselves and the London branch, some like the trust criticising supporters for complaining and others not bothering to answer. Having them presented prior to the meetings is a good idea. From my list there are no general questions, more specific to a group with 4 being the most, which isn't a lot.

If there's any repetitive questions asked or any that you can answer go for it. I keep asking about the aim of the group as I've still no idea.

At least we’re not Stockport

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22 Jan 2019 12:21 #33 by CarlisleWhite
Replied by CarlisleWhite on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
Could I ask why the Club have stopped their media man posting about the match.
Also, why do all feel they are so poor on the Media side (negligible promotion of matches), and what steps CUSG feel they could do to help improve it.

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22 Jan 2019 12:26 #34 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

Mullen103 wrote:

Mouldy wrote: We’ve never said we want to limit questions Mullen. Bumble has suggested it a few posts up but that’s the first time it’s been mentioned. We are there to ask questions submitted from tc.net posters, if your anonymous ones are from posters, great we’ll ask them. If not just drop us an email and we’ll take it from there. I think it’s perhaps the case they are all from you but you thought saying some were anon may take some criticism away from you for asking so many. Admittedly, I could be wrong and if I am, sorry.

I’m not in the slightest bothered about asking the questions and will continue to do so, but I stand by my comments that some aren’t relevant for CUSG meetings.

NS - correct, but this is the first time we’ve ran with the newly agreed question format. I don’t believe for one second you actually think the questions are sent, answers are provided (or not) and there’s no discussion in the meetings, so there’s always going to be some time expended. If we can reduce that by eliminating non relevant or repeated questions and some can be asked direct to groups - brilliant. If the groups aren’t responding, we’ll say that when they suggested contacting them direct.

Wherever this notion of us being in bed with the trust has come from, I can categorically say (on behalf of myself) there is not a single member of the trust board that I would join in bed. In an attempt to eliminate all doubt, I have no confidence in the trust as shareholders of Carlisle United or as fans representatives in their current guise. I think they fail on a number of levels to even function, let alone be productive.


I presumed, maybe wrongly, by CCU that only 3 would be asked. Apologies if wrong.

Yes the majority are from me, the ones labelled SL in the DSG section aren't, they are from my mate that can't see, after a discussion he's obviously not a poster on here. The one about promotion being a failure was another asked by him. The one about EWM/Sheridan/Curle was from a family member and not a poster on here.

Can you confirm if the questions submitted by myself will be asked?

It's quite obvious that the questions have caused some issue. Some embracing them like yourselves and the London branch, some like the trust criticising supporters for complaining and others not bothering to answer. Having them presented prior to the meetings is a good idea. From my list there are no general questions, more specific to a group with 4 being the most, which isn't a lot.

If there's any repetitive questions asked or any that you can answer go for it. I keep asking about the aim of the group as I've still no idea.


In my opinion, they're completely out of order wanting to know who the question came from in Mullens case people have run the question past him but it's him whos asking them nobody else.

But as I say the whole things a sham if you ask a question they don't want to answer/can't answer without dropping themselves in the shite they just don't answer it and it should be shown afterwards as refused to answer.

I suggest we all direct financial/ownership questions at the Trust Holdings board member as he clearly attends their board meetings and under company law, he cant be excluded from decisions made and information gained and a lot of refusals to answer will not show him in a good light.

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22 Jan 2019 12:44 #35 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Mullen103 wrote:

Mouldy wrote: We’ve never said we want to limit questions Mullen. Bumble has suggested it a few posts up but that’s the first time it’s been mentioned. We are there to ask questions submitted from tc.net posters, if your anonymous ones are from posters, great we’ll ask them. If not just drop us an email and we’ll take it from there. I think it’s perhaps the case they are all from you but you thought saying some were anon may take some criticism away from you for asking so many. Admittedly, I could be wrong and if I am, sorry.

I’m not in the slightest bothered about asking the questions and will continue to do so, but I stand by my comments that some aren’t relevant for CUSG meetings.

NS - correct, but this is the first time we’ve ran with the newly agreed question format. I don’t believe for one second you actually think the questions are sent, answers are provided (or not) and there’s no discussion in the meetings, so there’s always going to be some time expended. If we can reduce that by eliminating non relevant or repeated questions and some can be asked direct to groups - brilliant. If the groups aren’t responding, we’ll say that when they suggested contacting them direct.

Wherever this notion of us being in bed with the trust has come from, I can categorically say (on behalf of myself) there is not a single member of the trust board that I would join in bed. In an attempt to eliminate all doubt, I have no confidence in the trust as shareholders of Carlisle United or as fans representatives in their current guise. I think they fail on a number of levels to even function, let alone be productive.


I presumed, maybe wrongly, by CCU that only 3 would be asked. Apologies if wrong.

Yes the majority are from me, the ones labelled SL in the DSG section aren't, they are from my mate that can't see, after a discussion he's obviously not a poster on here. The one about promotion being a failure was another asked by him. The one about EWM/Sheridan/Curle was from a family member and not a poster on here.

Can you confirm if the questions submitted by myself will be asked?

It's quite obvious that the questions have caused some issue. Some embracing them like yourselves and the London branch, some like the trust criticising supporters for complaining and others not bothering to answer. Having them presented prior to the meetings is a good idea. From my list there are no general questions, more specific to a group with 4 being the most, which isn't a lot.

If there's any repetitive questions asked or any that you can answer go for it. I keep asking about the aim of the group as I've still no idea.


In my opinion, they're completely out of order wanting to know who the question came from in Mullens case people have run the question past him but it's him whos asking them nobody else.

But as I say the whole things a sham if you ask a question they don't want to answer/can't answer without dropping themselves in the shite they just don't answer it and it should be shown afterwards as refused to answer.

I suggest we all direct financial/ownership questions at the Trust Holdings board member as he clearly attends their board meetings and under company law, he cant be excluded from decisions made and information gained and a lot of refusals to answer will not show him in a good light.


Yes, i'm 100% responsible for asking the questions, they could of come from anywhere really. I have asked a few, and a couple aren't directly from me, but shouldn't really matter.

To me the trust have come out very poor indeed. To criticise supporters for criticism is a cheap shot. In my opinion, their answers show exactly what they are. However the messageboard reps are bending over backwards to accommodate them (I guess this is where the in bed with the trust comments come from)

You should be able to ask a question anonymously. If we can't why can the groups just respond as a group. I want to know who from the group is answering if the questioner has to make themselves public.

At least we’re not Stockport

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22 Jan 2019 12:54 #36 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

Mullen103 wrote:

NORTHERNSOUL wrote:

Mullen103 wrote:

Mouldy wrote: We’ve never said we want to limit questions Mullen. Bumble has suggested it a few posts up but that’s the first time it’s been mentioned. We are there to ask questions submitted from tc.net posters, if your anonymous ones are from posters, great we’ll ask them. If not just drop us an email and we’ll take it from there. I think it’s perhaps the case they are all from you but you thought saying some were anon may take some criticism away from you for asking so many. Admittedly, I could be wrong and if I am, sorry.

I’m not in the slightest bothered about asking the questions and will continue to do so, but I stand by my comments that some aren’t relevant for CUSG meetings.

NS - correct, but this is the first time we’ve ran with the newly agreed question format. I don’t believe for one second you actually think the questions are sent, answers are provided (or not) and there’s no discussion in the meetings, so there’s always going to be some time expended. If we can reduce that by eliminating non relevant or repeated questions and some can be asked direct to groups - brilliant. If the groups aren’t responding, we’ll say that when they suggested contacting them direct.

Wherever this notion of us being in bed with the trust has come from, I can categorically say (on behalf of myself) there is not a single member of the trust board that I would join in bed. In an attempt to eliminate all doubt, I have no confidence in the trust as shareholders of Carlisle United or as fans representatives in their current guise. I think they fail on a number of levels to even function, let alone be productive.


I presumed, maybe wrongly, by CCU that only 3 would be asked. Apologies if wrong.

Yes the majority are from me, the ones labelled SL in the DSG section aren't, they are from my mate that can't see, after a discussion he's obviously not a poster on here. The one about promotion being a failure was another asked by him. The one about EWM/Sheridan/Curle was from a family member and not a poster on here.

Can you confirm if the questions submitted by myself will be asked?

It's quite obvious that the questions have caused some issue. Some embracing them like yourselves and the London branch, some like the trust criticising supporters for complaining and others not bothering to answer. Having them presented prior to the meetings is a good idea. From my list there are no general questions, more specific to a group with 4 being the most, which isn't a lot.

If there's any repetitive questions asked or any that you can answer go for it. I keep asking about the aim of the group as I've still no idea.


In my opinion, they're completely out of order wanting to know who the question came from in Mullens case people have run the question past him but it's him whos asking them nobody else.

But as I say the whole things a sham if you ask a question they don't want to answer/can't answer without dropping themselves in the shite they just don't answer it and it should be shown afterwards as refused to answer.

I suggest we all direct financial/ownership questions at the Trust Holdings board member as he clearly attends their board meetings and under company law, he cant be excluded from decisions made and information gained and a lot of refusals to answer will not show him in a good light.


Yes, i'm 100% responsible for asking the questions, they could of come from anywhere really. I have asked a few, and a couple aren't directly from me, but shouldn't really matter.

To me the trust have come out very poor indeed. To criticise supporters for criticism is a cheap shot. In my opinion, their answers show exactly what they are. However the messageboard reps are bending over backwards to accommodate them (I guess this is where the in bed with the trust comments come from)

You should be able to ask a question anonymously. If we can't why can the groups just respond as a group. I want to know who from the group is answering if the questioner has to make themselves public.

[/b]

Yes thats a very reasonable request

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22 Jan 2019 12:54 #37 by Southernblue
Replied by Southernblue on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

Mullen103 wrote:
Yes, i'm 100% responsible for asking the questions, they could of come from anywhere really. I have asked a few, and a couple aren't directly from me, but shouldn't really matter.

To me the trust have come out very poor indeed. To criticise supporters for criticism is a cheap shot. In my opinion, their answers show exactly what they are. However the messageboard reps are bending over backwards to accommodate them (I guess this is where the in bed with the trust comments come from)

You should be able to ask a question anonymously. If we can't why can the groups just respond as a group. I want to know who from the group is answering if the questioner has to make themselves public.


From what I've read above there is no issue with the person asking the question remaining anonymous, just that the mods are being asked to confirm they are from genuine people. I'm guessing the trust are concerned that people are setting up fake accounts just to ask awkward questions of the group, whereas the reality all questions being asked are from genuine fans with genuine concerns they want answered.

Don't see it being a conspiracy, just that the person asking is a real person for whom the message board is the representative, the identity of questions can be withheld if the person asking wishes it to be, least that's what I've taken from the responses on this thread
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22 Jan 2019 13:10 #38 by Dancingbear
Replied by Dancingbear on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
Mullen, I think you’d have more success if you did only ask a couple of the more probing questions each time as there’s be less for them to hide behind. Asking too many will no doubt lead to dilution or non answering.

There's only one way of life and that's your own!!!

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22 Jan 2019 13:30 #39 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
I’ll take your advice on board DB for next meeting.

However there is a lot of questions this time but not a lot per group.

At least we’re not Stockport
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22 Jan 2019 14:17 #40 by lbtufty
Replied by lbtufty on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
Q: "Given that the first opportunity to implement will most likely be this August, is there anything being done behind the scenes by CUSG to look to create an ‘Ultras’ or plain old singing section within Brunton Park in an attempt to improve the atmosphere at home games? Lincoln City, for example, haven’t looked back since they went down that road and there plenty of other clubs attempting to engage directly with fans in exploring options.”

"If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off."

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22 Jan 2019 14:36 #41 by Lakelandterrier
Replied by Lakelandterrier on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
Questions for Directors of Holdings and 1921 BoD:

1. What is the current kevel of debt to EWM? It is a concern for supporters.

2. What is the succession plan for ownership? Update needed from question asked at Directors forum, May 2018.

Cumbrian and Proud
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22 Jan 2019 14:44 #42 by NORTHERNSOUL
Replied by NORTHERNSOUL on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
Question for Clibbins or Holdsworth whichever one is claiming to be in charge today.

Since the time when the original loan from EWM took place how much more has been borrowed ? and more importantly how much if any has actually been repaid ?

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22 Jan 2019 16:43 - 22 Jan 2019 16:49 #43 by seesaw50
Replied by seesaw50 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
Questions for Mullen, as you are back in knock the club mode:

When are you coming back to support the club you are so clearly interested in.
Why do you apparently think pay on the day @ £21 is unreasonable in this day and age. (Pre match day prices are available as you well know), even if you can't get down, just phone up, pay by card, pick up ticket at main stand window!

Oh and when are you gonna stop using the word "of " when you mean "have"
Would of - wrong
Would have - right

And more annoyingly the word "he's" when you mean "his".

Cheers

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is to have won the lottery of life !

Last edit: 22 Jan 2019 16:49 by seesaw50.
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22 Jan 2019 16:52 #44 by munchymagic
Replied by munchymagic on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
It gets heated on here because we are all passionate in our own way on how Carlisle United should be run.

None of us would be on here otherwise I would guess.

I was all for this board moderators attending the meetings and now I am not so sure as even with the best intentions there will always be accusations of conflict of interest if them attending does not bear fruit.

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22 Jan 2019 16:55 #45 by seesaw50
Replied by seesaw50 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
Question for CCU - 1) do you think Mullen is trying to disrupt attempts at gaining proper answers to legitimate questions ?
2) Mullen likes the sound of his own voice?

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is to have won the lottery of life !

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22 Jan 2019 17:00 - 22 Jan 2019 17:24 #46 by DeckchairBlue
Replied by DeckchairBlue on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19
Q - In a recent poll by Against League 3 the club was rated by fans as the 9th worst run in the country.

How does the club/owners react to this, do they understand why fans feel this way, what are they doing to improve this and fans perception of the club?

Mainly aimed at any representatives from the club and CUOSC, but also for all attendees.

Attached a link to the poll
againstleague3.co.uk/2018/12/21/top-10-w...all-owners-revealed/
Last edit: 22 Jan 2019 17:24 by DeckchairBlue.
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22 Jan 2019 17:05 #47 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

seesaw50 wrote: Questions for Mullen, as you are back in knock the club mode:

When are you coming back to support the club you are so clearly interested in.

When Nixon, Pattinson and Jenkins are no longer listed as directors/owners. I'd probably watch in whatever league Carlisle are in if someone else took over but no more in league 2. Despite the 1st sentence, it's not a boycott as such it's more boycott of the product and as owners, including the trust, they aren't doing enough to entice me back. If promoted I might make the odd game in league 1 as I can take bird shit seats, decaying stadium and a dreadful catering service for ok football. Tinpot 2 football is boring and bored me to death, even winning, and with the hassle of the "matchday experience" it's not worth it.

Why do you apparently think pay on the day @ £21 is unreasonable in this day and age. (Pre match day prices are available as you well know), even if you can't get down, just phone up, pay by card, pick up ticket at main stand window!


It's not just a Carlisle United's issue its football in general really, it's far too expensive for what it is, my opinion of course as people pay it. £21 for tinpot two football is a disgrace, even in this day and age, the football is dreadful and so is the stadium and "matchday experience" for Carlisle United. Carlisle are in a good position of having a high capacity stadium so should try things to increase supporters and lower costs.

Back to the original question, a family of 4 can go bowling for £30, go to the cinema for £20. When you go to BP it'll be £50 at least to watch what is dreadful football.


It really isn't that difficult to answer questions

At least we’re not Stockport
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22 Jan 2019 17:11 #48 by Mullen103
Replied by Mullen103 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

seesaw50 wrote: Question for CCU - 1) do you think Mullen is trying to disrupt attempts at gaining proper answers to legitimate questions ?
2) Mullen likes the sound of his own voice?


I'm asking questions Seesaw, not trying to disrupt an answer. Bit of an odd question.
I love the sound of my voice Seesaw, but that's not a question just a statement

Happy for CCU to answer, presuming he's a real person and I know what he had for dinner, shoe size, job, marital status and financial income.

Did you enjoy Glasgow CCU, i presume it was work? I recommend a blue lagoon Haggis, right time of year.

At least we’re not Stockport

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22 Jan 2019 17:21 #49 by seesaw50
Replied by seesaw50 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

Mullen103 wrote:

seesaw50 wrote: Questions for Mullen, as you are back in knock the club mode:

When are you coming back to support the club you are so clearly interested in.

When Nixon, Pattinson and Jenkins are no longer listed as directors/owners. I'd probably watch in whatever league Carlisle are in if someone else took over but no more in league 2. Despite the 1st sentence, it's not a boycott as such it's more boycott of the product and as owners, including the trust, they aren't doing enough to entice me back. If promoted I might make the odd game in league 1 as I can take bird shit seats, decaying stadium and a dreadful catering service for ok football. Tinpot 2 football is boring and bored me to death, even winning, and with the hassle of the "matchday experience" it's not worth it.

Why do you apparently think pay on the day @ £21 is unreasonable in this day and age. (Pre match day prices are available as you well know), even if you can't get down, just phone up, pay by card, pick up ticket at main stand window!


It's not just a Carlisle United's issue its football in general really, it's far too expensive for what it is, my opinion of course as people pay it. £21 for tinpot two football is a disgrace, even in this day and age, the football is dreadful and so is the stadium and "matchday experience" for Carlisle United. Carlisle are in a good position of having a high capacity stadium so should try things to increase supporters and lower costs.

Back to the original question, a family of 4 can go bowling for £30, go to the cinema for £20. When you go to BP it'll be £50 at least to watch what is dreadful football.


It really isn't that difficult to answer questions


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is to have won the lottery of life !

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22 Jan 2019 17:28 #50 by seesaw50
Replied by seesaw50 on topic CUSG Meeting - Mon 28 Jan 19

seesaw50 wrote:

Mullen103 wrote:

seesaw50 wrote: Questions for Mullen, as you are back in knock the club mode:

When are you coming back to support the club you are so clearly interested in.

When Nixon, Pattinson and Jenkins are no longer listed as directors/owners. I'd probably watch in whatever league Carlisle are in if someone else took over but no more in league 2. Despite the 1st sentence, it's not a boycott as such it's more boycott of the product and as owners, including the trust, they aren't doing enough to entice me back. If promoted I might make the odd game in league 1 as I can take bird shit seats, decaying stadium and a dreadful catering service for ok football. Tinpot 2 football is boring and bored me to death, even winning, and with the hassle of the "matchday experience" it's not worth it.

Why do you apparently think pay on the day @ £21 is unreasonable in this day and age. (Pre match day prices are available as you well know), even if you can't get down, just phone up, pay by card, pick up ticket at main stand window!


It's not just a Carlisle United's issue its football in general really, it's far too expensive for what it is, my opinion of course as people pay it. £21 for tinpot two football is a disgrace, even in this day and age, the football is dreadful and so is the stadium and "matchday experience" for Carlisle United. Carlisle are in a good position of having a high capacity stadium so should try things to increase supporters and lower costs.

Back to the original question, a family of 4 can go bowling for £30, go to the cinema for £20. When you go to BP it'll be £50 at least to watch what is dreadful football.


It really isn't that difficult to answer questions


You use the word "tinpot" twice
Once to describe football at CU once to describe Div 2 football in general....so that means to me you have made your mind up and therefor aren't interested in watching football either here or anywhere else where our club competes, at present.
Time to stop meddling methinks...your questions are void.

To have been born Cumbrian
is to have won the lottery of life !

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